Rover P6 3500S engine swap

[c107]

I recently stopped by Styria's workshop to pick up a couple of radios he had for me. I was able to take a few photos of what he will probably update on the site too.

His son bought a P6 3500S in the last year or so, and styria has been doing an engine swap. I'll let him explain the background, but having seen the engine with the rocker covers off, i'm surprised it ran at all. The engine is full of a combination of sludge and coolant residue. Luckily Styria has a spare engine he is preparing for this car.

 

[c107]

The engine was worse than it looks in these photos. Looking down at the camshaft, it was completely toast.

 

[Patrick_R]

What a shame that something, quite easy to maintain, is often criminally neglected.

 

[Styria]

Bryce, thank you for posting the photos. I will have some more in due course. Once we removed the Inlet Manifold gasket, it was all there to see. Bryce referred to basically a "cooked" engine, badly sludged up and it was quite evident that the engine oil had not been changed for years. Richard, my son, bought it from a Rover Club member who had entrusted his "mechanic" with maintenance tasks that appeared, on first experience, to be well carried out. We picked up the car from somewhere inland from Taree/Port Macquarie, and we had to drive it back to Sydney on a day when temperatures were near the 40 degree mark. The car performed quite faultlessly, given that the P6 V8 version can be regarded as somewhat of a problem child on very hot days, with fuel evaporation a problem that even beset an initial road test carried out by an Australian magazine when the cars were new.

All went well on the trip until we had the steady incline from the Hawkesbury River bridge on the M1, but the car made it comfortably in the end. Prior to leaving, I had noticed slight "fluffiness" from the exhaust, but put it down to a slight tuning issue, and I suggested to Richard that I would look at the tune of the carburettors. That task was a bit of a hit and miss affair inspite of my experience with Rovers, but we decided to store the car on Brent's (my youngest son - Motor Trimmer) premises at Galston. When the boys came to start the car several weeks later, it started well enough initially, but then the engine stopped. Another attempt a little later, and the engine would only turn very slowly and then not turn at all. A subsequent effort, somewhat later (a few days) the engine was solid and not responding to the Starter Motor, and even tow starting with the help of NRMA road service only resulted in locked up rear wheels. In my opinion, the tow attempt to start the car only further resulted in a more severe lock up of he engine. By that time, it was obvious that substantial rectification would be required - and whilst heads have not yet been removed, I would guess that a head gasket water leak down the bore(s) has resulted in the seized engine. More to follow. Regards Styria

 

[Styria]

I think now is the time to update our joint effort and dealing with the seized engine in general, and the car in particular-perhaps it should be the other way round. My partner in crime is my oldest son Richard. He got his taste for the P6 Rovers right from when he was able to drive around my seven acre property at Glenorie from probably about the age of 14, and then in due course progressed to significant rear suspension when the car decided to park itself in a ditch, and he was also able to demolish a very rare Rover 2200 Auto when the car decided to hurdle a driveway culvert and found a telegraph pole about twenty metres down along the quite wide nature strip.

This was all under legit licence and, furthermore, I finished up presenting him with a rebuilt 3500S for his 21st birthday. He used that car well and capably for a number of years. However, ever since those long gone days ago he has always wanted a Rover 3500s that he could call his own. That's how he came to acquire the car that is now the subject matter of this thread. More to come. Regards Styria

N.B. In fact, plenty more.

 

[Styria]

On much closer examination, I came to realize that he had bought a car quite badly neglected in a number of areas. When we came to inspect it, I should have been far more thorough in examining the car. I thought it looked well cared for, had nice bumpers and all the stickers in the right place, the engine showed good oil pressure and the gearchanges worked well with the standard Rover four speeder. The price was fair to middly, and one could ignore some looseness in the rear suspension and some harsh clicking and clonking noises. Anyway, Richie went ahead and we drove the car back to Sydney without any real dramas on a stinking hot day. I drove his well specced Commodore and he drove the Rover, with outside temperatures hovering around the 40 degree mark. It was not pleasant.

I felt that I could check tune and timing of his engine to eliminate that slight "fluffing" already referred to, but honestly I was unable to achieve any noticeable improvement. I even partially the twin Carburettor set up, with no real improvement. Anyway, for various reasons the car was parked semi permanently at Brent, my other son's premises when at Galston. He has now relocated to Gosford, and it is worthwhile checking out his website, viz. Brent Parker Motor Trimming, for some significant surprises. Anyway, the Rover was there for two to three months largely unattended of course until efforts where initiated to relocate the car the Glenhaven. In the course of those efforts, the engine seized up as initially referred to. Regards Styria

 

[Patrick_R]

This is an epic story Styria.

 

[Styria]

I think the time is now much overdue to recommence this Rebuild. Even though the engine performed beautifully on the return journey to Sydney on that heat oppressive day (38 degrees), I took on the task of tuning the twin SU Carburettors. I wanted to check/eliminate a slight fluffiness emanating from the exhaust. Due to various circumstances, the car remained unused on Parks' (youngest son) Upholstery premises then located at Galston in the Hills District for some two to three months. When attempting to start the car prior to moving it to Richard's (my oldest son) home at Glenhaven, the engine ran for some ten to fifteen seconds, and then stopped. Numerous attempts to restart it again only provided a solenoid click, but the engine would not turn. The immediate feeling in locating the issue centred on the battery and then Starter Motor. A call to NRMA provided no solution even after an extensive tow, so the car was flatbedded to Richard's home and thereafter, to my Factory where we removed engine from car and commenced dismantling. The Starter Motor had been removed and rebuilt at some stage in between moving the car.

Original assessment and removal of components centred on overheating issues. This was at the time when Bryce was kind enough and posted the photos he took on TK. Further examination revealed an issue totally unrelated to overheating. The problem simply became more and more evident the further I dismantled the engine. It was engine sludge, completely right throughout the engine. It was so bad that the oil pump was completely seized up as all that sludge had calcified and became solid - because the car was not used for those months and also because the previous owner/s had neglected to change oil on a regular basis. Here are some pics. to illustrate what we found.

 

[Styria]

As evident by the photos, there was clearly no purpose in saving that engine at this stage. Going through my spare engines (such as they are), I chose a replacement that I had rebuilt some fifteen years prior. At that time, I would have removed heads, checked bores, removed pistons, crank etc., and fitted new rings and bearings all round, headwork etc. etc. - you know, the normal tasks that need to be carried out to finish up with a good quality engine rebuild. As I wanted to take no chances with this engine, I decided to carry out a partial disassembly involving removal of heads and many other components. There was one aspect that greatly concerned me, and it related to turning the engine - it was almost impossible to do so. First of all, I stood the assembled block upside down, removed bearing shells etc. to ensure that there was still evidence of oiling that I had carried out all those years ago and that all bearing shells were still in unmarked condition, including the main shells. I also re-oiled gudgeon pins etc., but it made little difference.That engine was TIGHT - far too much for my liking. I decided that there was no alternative but to remove all pistons and start again.

 

[Styria]

Things are a bit mumbo jumbo with my illustrations. Anyhow, on the subject of engine not reluctant to turn. I needed to find out the reasons why and removal of all eight piston assemblies would enable me to check free movement of the crank - talking primarily about main bearings resistance. That was all fine, so I decided to check for gudgeon pin movement. Sure enough, over all of those years, about four were almost "frozen", with the remainder also being quite tight. I succeeded in freeing up all assemblies by oiling and applying heat to the gudgeons by means of my heat gun. This worked quite well on the bench, so I re-assembled the complete unit. I had also purchase new rocker shaft, and once everything was in place and re-fitted, the engine turned, but still not 100% freely. However, I decided to leave well alone and kept fingers crossed that the Starter Motor would be strong enough to actually turn, first without spark plugs fitted, and then with. It was only the day before this Easter that I put my efforts to the test - engine turned at a reasnable speed on engagement of the Starter Motor. So far, so good ! Regards Styria

 

[Styria]

One of the prerequisites of the Rover/Leyland V8 engine relates to oil changes at the required interval. I have taken it upon myself to religiously carry out that task every six months, especially with cars that are being used on a regular basis. Adopting this procedure, I have been rewarded with faultless engine operations from both the little Honda Jazz (1.3) at 112K. and the Holden Captiva (3.2 V6) at 224K. However, I digress a little. Getting back to the Rover and Leyland V8s, at times after long delays between usage, it is possible for the oil pump not picking the required oil and therefore no oil pressure. I have been aware of this failing for many years, and thereby decided to modify a Distributor shaft and produce a mandrel that can be attached to a Power Drill. This is the tool in question.

 

[Styria]

By inserting the "mandrel" in place of the normal Distributor shaft, I am able to turn the oil pump and thereby deliver oil circulation right throughout the engine. It is a comforting procedure. After some ten months, we are now in position to start the engine, so we are keeping fingers crossed big time. We have Oil, Petrol, Brakes, Clutch, and all the goodies we need. Hopefully, more information, all good hopefully, will be related in due course. It's been a long ten months. Regards Styria

 

[c107]

Great update - keen to hear how this all finishes up.

 

[Patrick_R]

Great write up Styria.
Like Bryce, I’m looking forward to more on this.
Keep up the good work.

 

[Styria]

So now we are seven months down the track and Richie's 3500S is still parked in the same location. One may ask why ? Surely it can't take that long to finish the job. Right ? Yes, right. Even though I had completely disassembled the new engine, and attended to very tight gudgeon pins by way of my heat gun to free them up (as already referred to), it was still "tight" and I had clear misgivings that the starter motor would not turn, let alone start, an engine with plugs installed etc. etc. Luckily enough, my misgivings were found to be without justification.

Initially, copious use of Starting Fluid coaxed the engine into life but, at a horrifying idle speed of 2000 revs. However, I was determined to keep it running for about five minutes with baited breath etc. etc. It did not take long to find a bad water leak coming from a busted radiator core, unfortunately due to, shall we say, somewhat poor quality assembly. I'll take the blame for that, as with everything else that's been done on the car. The Rover 3500 (P6B) had always been prone to overheating, even when NEW, so at my suggestion we arranged for the manufacture of a triple, instead of the standard twin, core Radiator. Unfortunately, the Radiator shop did not get quite right the location of the mounting brackets, resulting in lack of clearance between the Viscous Coupling, as well as some plumbing items relating to the Power Steering pump brackets plus some other not quite so serious issues. It was a headache we could have done without as the brand new core had to be repaired by the Radiator Shop. All extra time involving dismantling, repair etc. etc., plus some modifications to the power steering brackets etc. For now, I will close the post pending examination of some photos that can be included. Regards Styria

 

[Styria]

I can now categorically state that it was the amount of sludge in the engine that caused it to seize, and not an overheating issue. The problem was probably of our own doing by not using the car for about three months parked in Parks' workshop at Galston. Efforts at Galston to clutch start (tow) the car by the NRMA only resulted in complete seizure of all moving components. One only has to take a closer look at the sludge in the sump but more importantly, the "hard" crusty sludge evident in the oil pump. I had to dig out all the crud from the hard set sludge in the pump. Further to the numerous attempts to tow start the car resulted in a mechanical issue that became evident only just recently. I am now attaching pictures taken in the restoring/renovation process undertaken in relation to the rebuilt heads and valve gear, exhaust manifolds and the re-assembled engine. Furthermore, there are pics. illustrating the refurbished engine bay (a huge job), the frontal aspect of the assembly showing the location of the power steering pump that resulted (partially) in a hole in the radiator core, and a smidgeon of some of the wiring issues. The last named has taught me one lesson - just taking pictures is not good enough - there must also be handwritten notes to explain some of the functions and connections of the wiring harness.

 

[Styria]

Some further pictures to illustrate some of the tasks involved.