Race Tyres

[oscar]

What should I get?

There's four sizes of those tyres, 2x14's, 2x15's, go from $190 to $220 each and they're no longer making them.
The SF340's pictured were replaced with S340's that are the same except the new type has tread instead of a full slick band in the middle.

Clicka for bigga

Simon, dude, grab the freebees... 2000 isn't that old, and once you've done a few hard corners and got them up to temperature you'll wear away the hardened outer layer. Or do a few burnouts.

For your $ the SF340 isn't a real great performance tyre. I mean it looks awesome with the RWL but its really for show cars and hasn't much more performance than a BFG T/A and is roughly on par with a Yokohama 352 (and they are both RWL). In fact if you can find Yoko 352 in 14" at around the same price as the SF340s or BFG T/A then thats the preferable tyre. Its much more sporting, not just for show.

They'll be better than any cheap radial that John Q Public would have fitted to a stock W116, but not have the handling of the XWX or any performance tyre thats newer. That said it can be hard to find performance tyres to fit 14 and 15 inch wheels these days...

I'll do a little research and come back with some good tyre choices in 14 and 15 in that aren't R-spec tyres, but as Cam will testify, once you start competing in R-spec tyres you'll never go back...

I.

 

[oscar]

I'll have another look at those freebies hopefully again next week. My main concern was the white letters were crumbling and the walls weren't smooth and I think there may have been a few sidewall crack appearing.

I was also reading about tread wear indexes but couldn't find anything about the S340. Actually, I couldn't find any manufacturer list on their websites what the TWI of some of their performance tyres were.

I think I need softer shoes on Povo too. I'll leave the new set of 15" s340's for the 350. Because they look cool

But if you can find anything in 14" Ian I'd like to hear it. If I'm going to be smart here and ditch the "all show & no go" ethos I've dreamt for povo, I think directional tyres should be considered at the very least. Speaking of which Craigb was going Yoko C-Drives. But looking at Yoko, I saw the 352's. I didn't think that kind of pattern would be any good. Had I known they were RWL talk about a hypocritical paragraph. I'm back to all show again.

Anyway, 352's good yeah? What else should I look at? I wont bother with BFG T/A.
352
C-Drive

IMPORTANT: I'm also thinking of going something that has a smaller OD than standard 205/70/14's so there's better acceleration. Eg, The OEM tyres had a circumference of 2019mm compared to 235/60/14 that are 2003mm. Would it make much of a difference looking for a smaller circumference tyre?

 

[B13]

Jeez you're weaving all over the road there Oscar... its all over the place... Lets try to bring this into some logical discussion...

First and foremostly, whether its sooner or later, you'll end up with R-spec tyres on the track car - everyone does. Fortunately lots of manufacturers make them, some of which include the Yokohama A032R, A048R, Bridgestone RE510S, Toyo RA-1, and BFG Comp T/A R1 and Falken Azenis.

At the opposite end of the scale are what I call plain road tyres... the sort of thing on my wife's Verada, like the Dunlop Monza, or Bridgestone RE92. They are good enough at their job for a car not pushed over 100km/h and not cornered agressively. They are also relatively cheap.

In the middle you have a large selection of higher performance tyres such as the Yokohama Cdrive, Bridgestone ER952 and AR10. What I guess you're looking for is the most appropriate size (205-225) aspect ratio (60-65) in rim size (14 for your bundts or 15 for your pentas) that will satisfy your wallet. (Once you are looking at paying more than $200ea you are getting into R-spec territory, and well over used-R-Spec territory, so try to find good tyres in the $140-$160 new price range.)

Story: Back in the day on my RX2 I used to run Yokohama A008R, which is an early R-spec tyre from the 1980s, and the predecessor to the A032R. Mine were worn out, and a day before an event I couldn't think of anything to run... I also had no $ spare so finding another set of A008's was a non-issue. A friend of mine who owed me some coin for a computer said he'd buy me some tyres, and came back with 4 Falken ZE-512 in 205/60-13. I'd say he fluked it because I'd never previously have considered buying them, and all he asked for was "a set of the softest tyres you have in stock in a 205/60-13). Turned out to be absolutely awesome for what they were, and I still have them set aside for my RX4 as "wets", they are that good. High cornering power, low screeching, good drainage. When I bought my (now sold) RX7 I had no issue putting a set of 195/60-14 Falken ZE-512s on. They are now an obsolete tyre, and I don't think its replacement, the ZE-329 come in the required sizes for the Mazda or even the 116 anymore.

Maybe have a look at what Pirelli, Yokohama, Falken, and Toyo can help you with.

I.

 

[SELfor50]

That's my answer.......
(not the Pleather of death, but what's under them).
Cost me $150 for 6 of them (and 1 other tyre that is of absolutely no use to me) Haven't searched e-bay for awhile so might have missed a few bargains..

This set of used r-spec yokos will probably last me 1 day at sandown. I'll be driving down on them (which won't wear for shyte, cause i'll be driving like a grandma) but i'm sure after 1 day of 4-6 sprints they'll be cactus.

However, same tyres for hill-climbs would last maybe 3-5 events.
I used my previous set for 1 hillclimb (5 runs), i think it might have even been the one you came to, and then also at winton. They are still on the car (till tomorrow) but I wouldn't let the stig drive them with anymore than crawling pace..... but then again, 'I am the stig'. (it's from the shirt)

I guess out of all that rambling you can take this:

R-spec tyres, my choice they are... Never go back to normal rubber, you will.... young Jedi.

 

[oscar]

Thanks for the reality check guys 350 for show (RWL) and Povo for goooo.

If I really miss the RWL's I can always liquid paper letters on the sidewall of the semi slicks. Ian, yes I was all over the place. Too many of the wrong thing kept clouding my thoughts. Your lucky I didn't mention whitewalls or redlines

I'll see my local BJ tyre guy. He can get anything he said and sells dragsters their slicks. I never thought of asking him about real race tyres the other day. I had Eagers on my mind and asked for prices of them only.

In your opinions, is it worth spending $ on new R tyres considering I'll be only using them on the track? I saw prices of $400 which is way too much but if there's something in the $200-300 range I could stretch the budget.

 

[Styria]

Hi guys, I am totally confused - what's wrong with my 18" Nankangs ! Seriously though, what's this all about ? For instance, Ossie, I did not realize that you are now really into this racing "thingy" - am I correct in assuming this ? So guys, are you talking S/H normal or race tyres, street tyres (I see a reference to XWX originals, in short, I am confused. Any chance of filling me in with a bit of info ? Regards Styria

 

[SELfor50]

Hi guys, I am totally confused - what's wrong with my 18" Nankangs ! Seriously though, what's this all about ? For instance, Ossie, I did not realize that you are now really into this racing "thingy" - am I correct in assuming this ? So guys, are you talking S/H normal or race tyres, street tyres (I see a reference to XWX originals, in short, I am confused. Any chance of filling me in with a bit of info ? Regards Styria

Heya Godfather,

Here's a few articles that will explain it better than we (at least me anyway) probably can.

The history of Yoko Advan:
http://www.yokohama.com.au/advan/

Great article about R-spec tyres in general:
http://http://autospeed.com/cms/A_2912/article.html


I guess the main thing is, while most R-spec tyres are now 'street legal' and DOT approved, the cost of them is not feasible unless you are competing OR only driving your 6.9 or Ferrari or Porsche on a Dry, Sunny, Sunday.
Once a drop of water hits the road, these things are pretty outta control.

The sidewalls and soft rubber make them pretty bloody noise to use on normal road (VERY Noisy) but helps with feel and i'm guessing the lack of 'squeal' when they light up on the track (doesn't squeal, instead just sounds like a scrape). I can testify though, the grip comparison isn't even close compared to performance street tyres.

Does that help?

 

[oscar]

For instance, Ossie, I did not realize that you are now really into this racing "thingy" - am I correct in assuming this ?

Correct.

Just talking race tyres really. I was having a hard time accepting that proper race tyres are the way to go but they are. I saw the tyres Cam had at the hillclimb the day bb and I were there and have to admit, apart from the softer rubber or low Tread Wear Index, the visual appearance suggests that if the tyres say 215 wide or whatever, you're getting that width of rubber on the road. A lot performance tyres on the other hand have circumfrential water tracks that I reckon if you add up their widths, the 215 tyre may have something more like a 195's worth of wall to wall rubber. Just guessing really.

 

[John S]

I believe your comment "I'll have another look at those freebies hopefully again next week. My main concern was the white letters were crumbling and the walls weren't smooth and I think there may have been a few sidewall crack appearing." tells the story, these tyres are on their last legs and could blow so don't use them.

Also have a look at this video on car tyres that aren’t showing signs of distress, it's rather disturbing!!! Cut out or ignore the add at the start and see what you think of the rest-

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=4826897

I shall be looking at the date codes when buying tyres in future.

 

[B13]

Re. SF-340 Eagers

I guess it doesn't help that they've been on the market essentially unchanged since the were introduced in approx. 1984. (the Eager was released to replace the aging Bridgestone "Steel Belted 60" RWL tyre and introduce a 50 series in direct competition with the BFG T/A).

If they are early Eagers and have sat in the hot country NSW sun since last millenium then they probably are cactus.

Ian.

 

[B13]

I might talk for a moment about why used R-spec tyres make good sense if you can find them without flat spots.

A normal road tyre has about 10mm tread depth when new, and the low depth indicators come into play at around 2-3mm. Normal road tyres are also generally designed to be audible (squeal) as the limits of there adherance it approaching, to warn the driver they are about to go from in control, to idiocy, then out of control. Normal road tyres also have to last around 50,000km for buyers to not complain about premature wear.

An R-spec tyre is extremely soft, esp. when up to working temperature, and wears very quickly. Even in normal driving they would be lucky to last 10,000km. With soft rubber tread-block movement becomes an issue so R-spec tyres typically have 6mm tread new, instead of 10mm. Even so, some (most) buyers of R-spec tyres specify "buffed" race tyres. This is basically getting a brand new R-spec tyre, and then a machine buffs (files, or machines away) off 3mm bringing them down to 3mm tread depth. They then compete on these and discard them after a few events when the tread depth is about 2 mm.

Now, if a slick tyre is the best possible dry weather tyre (most possible rubber on the road at any one point) its logical to say that R-spec tyres get better an better until they become slick, and then you have a few laps before they are really throw-away. I tend to discard mine at around 0.5mm.

R-spec tyres with 2mm left on them are not expensive when you can find them, and both Cam and I are building up our own stocks of them.

The only problem with these used R-spec tyres is they are more succeptable to flat spotting then regular tyres, and when they do have a flat spot the wear rate around them is very high, esp. at race speeds. Couple this with the fact that a flat spot on a used tyre may not be readily identifiable until the tyre is mounted and driving makes this a bit of a hit-and-miss affair.

Of the tyres Cam ran at Winton, one was flat spotted probably prior to the event and as he knows, wore down so quickly around the flat spot so quickly that it was not possible to do a 4th set of 5 laps.

An A032R:

A Yokohama Cdrive:

I should point out a recent change at Yokohama which affects buying of R-spec tyres... up until recently the R-spec tyres were all called "Advan" as in the Advan series is the motorsports tyres. I guess they're trying to capitalise on the Advan name now and so they've released a range of high-performance regular road tyres also labelled "Advan" but really the one which is the proper R-spec tyre is the A048 (and A032R - which, btw, is a superseded tyre but still available until stocks deplete). So buying an Advan, no longer guarantees that you a buying an R-spec tyre.

Ian.

 

[oscar]

(the Eager was released to replace the aging Bridgestone "Steel Belted 60" RWL tyre and introduce a 50 series in direct competition with the BFG T/A).
.

You mean these on my trailer, but the tread is so good still Steel Belted 60's carried away the yellow "Gone in 60 Frames" 280. I have checked their dates before and I can't remember what they are. They're bloody old but it's too wet and muddy to venture beyond the path ATM. Even Povo is stranded in the background there.





John, great link there. Your probably shaking your head at the sight of the above tyres in service still. I can't believe ACA or TT haven't done a similar story especially after that recent tyre manufacturer closing down was in news. As for the Eagers (the new ones), with so few available and no longer produced it makes you wonder when they did the last batch.

One thing about this dating tyres business. Whilst I'm not against that TV report it would be very hard to give a practical used by date. Like Ian suggests about the unsuitability of the free Eagers partly due to their exposure to the elements, I would argue that many tyres would outlast a 6 year used by date if they're stored correctly. eg cool dry warehouse. Who's with me? .... (cricket noises) .

There must be heaps of "out of date" tyres on the road at the moment. I think trying to define a standard use-by-date across the board for tyres with which many have different compounds is like trying to guess when a jar of Vegemite goes off. Hence they introduced a best-before date. Same should go for tyres with a bit of policing when it comes to yearly rego checks. Something has to be done but I do wonder what stats the industry have in their favour. Eg, last time I saw some car accident stats a few years ago, causes of crashes are almost never caused by mechanical failure including tyre failure. It's mostly human error. Part of the reason why officialdom term car prangs as "crashes" (avoidable) rather than "accidents" (unavoidable).

That being said, changing to newer tyres has to come under preventative maintenance surely.


Ian, the A032R v CDrive. Something I noticed about street performance tyres is the circumfrencial water tracks. Actually, most road tyres have 'em these days and have done for some time. Add all those gaps up and at any time there's much less rubber on the road then a semi slick. Almost like a 225 tyre is now as wide as a 205? Just a guess.

Thanks for the extra info. All taken on board.