Disco Panzer

More threads by ProfessorExperimental

Messages
125
Points
81
Location
Sydney
1699590982645.jpeg

Might as well finally start my build thread given I've lurked here a year now :)

Since I was using a little room heater fan thing to dry out water that had seeped through the year-old car cover on the weekend, I'm starting all over again in some respects, so I might as well finally start documenting the thing. So.

One year ago:
20230212_194040.jpg
I bought this thing. I introduced myself here, and got a lot of helpful info straight away. I won't rehash all of the car's intro here, but the basics:

1977 build 350SE, imported from the UK in 1978. Mostly original mimosa yellow paint, very cracked and chipped and a bit faded/half-heartedly polished on the bonnet. Avocado tex/browny-yellowy-greenish tartan seats in pretty good condition. Zebra wood. All original glass. Mechanically not too neglected but not running (suspect ring gear missing teeth; starter spins). Lots of not very concerning rust, some trouble spots, some typical trouble spots (think fuel filler, parcel shelf) not at all bad. Aero 1s are real, but one leaks from the bead seat. Dubious instrument cluster (3 shift points) reads 64000 miles. Was cheap.

20230212_194055.jpg

Task priority:
Empty (came with bits. Trims, steelies, random clothes etc. Boot and rear seat full).
Dry (had been sat in the rain with nothing covering the rust hole in the roof).
Lift off guts (why they cut the springs to make it look like a stranded 6.9 I'll never know).
Investigate starter.
Try to start.
Get in garage (up the hill to the left in the 1st photo, shoulda bought a different house...)
Fix rust.
Drive 60 or fewer days per year and enjoy.

"Might take a few months"
^famous last words.
 
OP
ProfessorExperimental
Messages
125
Points
81
Location
Sydney
Place holder for the update where I pulled the fuel tank out and replaced most of the back end fuel system components that get clogged and stop working. Because they had gotten clogged and stopped working.
 
OP
ProfessorExperimental
Messages
125
Points
81
Location
Sydney
Place holder for rear springs escaping the spring perches and killing shocks on the way.
 
OP
ProfessorExperimental
Messages
125
Points
81
Location
Sydney
Place holder for seats vs steam cleaner. Spoiler: they were dirtier than they looked. But not so bad.
 
OP
ProfessorExperimental
Messages
125
Points
81
Location
Sydney
Place holder for...
Oh no wait. I finally got some help and we confirmed the thing wants to spark (in 1 crank revolution). Pulling the fuel pump relay did not give the starter enough juice to get momentum up to make it past the bald spot, so we pulled the starter*.

It had suffered.
20231104_153957.jpg

It had dealt many blows to its nemesis, the ring gear:
20231107_130839.jpg

I ordered a reman one. Hopefully it'll fully engage the rest of the teeth and maybe even the rear 5ths of the nearly destroyed ones and we can crank the engine long enough to fire.

We shall see.

*I heavily trivialise this process, which involved much lying on my back in the road holding tools on bolts while my friend kicked the tiny ends of their leverage to crack them loose, often with about 2cm target area and an inch or less swing room. We only succeeded because I discovered my 18mm deep socket fits almost play-free over the end of a second ratchet handle I own, and I could just fit an extension on that socket with the ground clearance available.

I also found wet soil behind my left front guard, meaning the car cover isn't watertight anymore...
 
OP
ProfessorExperimental
Messages
125
Points
81
Location
Sydney
20231107_144351.jpg
Opened it up to dry it out. Decided to pull off the wheel and clean the garden out from the front guard before it rusts the left like the right already has. Decided to start pulling shocks in advance of swapping to raised "lowering springs". Was amazed to discover the front springs are uncut. And factory. But somehow soft enough to let the car sit 3" off the ground?

20231107_160617.jpg
Finally changed the last Aero for steel. And left it on stands (awaiting starter arrival... hopefully soon). Poked a hole in right guard. Sad, but also to be expected given how bad the rust is. Also sad how much worse it has gotten over a year on the street (close proximity to gutter wash no help). Wish I'd had help to rip the starter out earlier...

Also had a fun time trying to speed up the footwell leakage drying with a heat gun...
20231105_170554.jpg
Managed to wipe its nose over my arm crawling back from the driver's footwell.

"Bought cheap mercedes. Got burnt."

Considered selling the car...
 
Last edited:
OP
ProfessorExperimental
Messages
125
Points
81
Location
Sydney
Great thread and good luck

real aero 1s are know to leak air if not properly painted on the inside too. The material is somewhat porous
Oooh, good to know! I haven't had the tyre pulled off yet but it was full of grass blades as if someone had seated it flat on a lawn with a backyard compressor, so the possibility that there was just enough gunk trapped between the bead and seat (or that whoever did the work damaged the bead getting the tyre on) made me none too convinced there has to be a problem with the wheel itself. The paint job on the centres is pretty well done (and has lasted well it seems) so whoever refurbished them wasn't totally incompetent.

I wouldn't have thought to make sure the insides are well painted though, thanks for that!
 
OP
ProfessorExperimental
Messages
125
Points
81
Location
Sydney
20231112_114541.jpg
New starter arrived yesterday.
But first some low hanging fruit:
20231112_114747.jpg
20231112_114742.jpg
Been missing one of these bonnet catch bumpers since day one, always had to remind myself not to do the Panel Beater Bonnet Drop...

20231108_213555.jpg
Resin 3d printer at work to the rescue...

20231112_114813.jpg
Dimensions could use a little fine tuning, but it fits in the hole and sits only a tiny bit loose. First "win" of the day.

20231112_124311.jpg
On to the big ticket stuff: gear on the reman starter definitely more confidence inspiring than the old one at first glance, but the biggest difference is actually the amount of slop on the shaft. The new arrival has virtually none, the old one I can rock side to side nearly a mm. In fact the oversize hole is clearly naked eye visible. I reckon that's actually what killed the ring gear: the partial tooth engagement under torque and the worn teeth on the starter gear are just a symptom of that problem.

Sadly, the differences do not end there.
20231112_133407.jpg
I am troubled by a gnawing suspicion that in my haste I may have purchased a LHD starter. From the US. Like a putz.

No, it doesn't fit with the solenoid out the other side (idler or pitman [I can never remember which is which] arm of the steering gets in the way, well, its bolt head does). So now maybe I'll learn how to pull starters apart and swap what needs swapping to get my rhd one proper working...

20231112_140924.jpg
Diversion therapy task was finally swapping front springs (in the road, least favoured option but not a lot left to do with the time available). Turned out the stockies had been cut, just much better than the rears. New ones are 30mm drop from H&R (these are covered by a 2011 ABE if you speak TüV, but I can't shake the suspicion that they're actually a re-release of the original AMG lowering springs offered in the 70s, since the drop matches and H&R were the original equipment manufacturer for a few stuttgart companies back in the day. Eibach, for instance, offers the more common 25mm drop option only...). I've replaced "one bump" rubber buffers with "3 bumps" all round to keep me inside the 25mm ride height tolerance of HVS/CVS in NSW. Makes fitting the new springs quite a pain in the spring compressor!

20231112_142945.jpg
20231112_143110.jpg
20231112_152629.jpg
20231112_151032.jpg
Yes, I used a bit of boot to get it in there in the end... This is definitely a task best performed with suspension all apart and a decent pedestal jack, on a hoist...

Finally, I couldn't help but take the opportunity for a little brand fanboy ******** "artistry", enjoy:
20231112_153229~2.jpg
 
OP
ProfessorExperimental
Messages
125
Points
81
Location
Sydney
Staring down the barrel of having to pull out the engine and transmission to replace the ring gear anyway, and wondering how likely it is that there's nothing internally wrong with the m116...

eBay is tormenting me with plausible-sounding bad ideas...
Screenshot_20231113_235427_Firefox.jpg

Change my mind?

I have nowhere to store it, much as I'd love to pull apart and rebuild an engine and if-so-then-why-not-go-all-out etc. And yes I do realise I'd need a w126 gearbox too (and a solution for speedo drive). At which point an efi Windsor and T5 start to sound like nearly sensible alternatives...

It's late... bad ideas are multiplying...
 

c107

and 111/116/123/124/126
Moderator
Messages
3,652
Points
983
Location
Sydney
if you're going to do the engine, put in a Mercedes engine like this. It will bolt right up and the fuel injection is the same. All the K-jet engines will - 450, 380, 500. The KE engines 420, 560 are more work.

Putting the ford in will just be headache after headache and once done, the car will have no value as Mercedes buyers are not interested in engine swaps. So you would have to love it, or not care.
 
OP
ProfessorExperimental
Messages
125
Points
81
Location
Sydney
...once done, the car will have no value...
I think that was true the moment I pulled the Aeros off it :)

In all seriousness I'd love to go 5.0 (that one's either one of the ECE ones they made after the 5.6 [if I read your blog right, Bryce?] or someone has swapped the "amg style" tri Y headers onto it, so... sweaty palms etc...) because I know I'd sink heaps of time and money into the 3.5 as soon as it's out anyway ("might as well"... *complete rebuild*)...

But I just don't have the facilities :( One engine next to a stranded car I can fit temporarily in my garage. But not 2/ one long term etc.

Like I say, I bought the wrong house...
 
OP
ProfessorExperimental
Messages
125
Points
81
Location
Sydney
20231116_125333.jpg
I tackled my Starter Rebuilding Apprenticeship this week. Discovered the magnitude of overengineering and complete lack of labour cost minimisation in the old (original?) starter vs the reman (and later design) one is quite startling. These (thread locked!) screws hold the cover plate for the pinion clutch into the front housing so without taking the commutator off one needs to be patient and clever with an 8mm wrench. The reman starter came apart much easier....

But absolutely nothing would interchange, apart from, (mercifully):
20231114_170322.jpg
The pinion and clutch. First win of the... week.

20231114_155956.jpg
Here's a shot of the old one without the housing in the way. Quite the wear!

While reassembling I made an effort to exclude any parasitic resistances between components:
20231116_133506.jpg20231116_133945.jpg
I noted the Bakelite rear cap on the solenoid. Might be worth more than the car soon ;)

20231118_120108.jpg
Continued the theme when reinstalling (yes of course it went back in, it's basically the same starter now 🙄). I even copperslipped everything. Leaving nothing to chance like.

And????

No dice.

Well, it cranks OK now. Not sure how many goes I have before the pinion starts dying in the muntered ring gear, but the engine only coughs, no decent attempt at running. So I checked the distributor...

20231118_155359.jpg20231118_155412.jpg
There *may* have been some arcing damage. Just a bit.

I scraped the contacts, doused everything in contact spray, dosed the intake with aerostart just to exclude bad fuel and injection issues and gave it one more try.

Still no.

So now I guess I need a new distributor cap, rotor, leads and plugs to be sure of ignition, rebuild the fuel distributor and clean/test injectors to be confident of fuelling and *then* hope that I don't have bent valves or a holy piston... so maybe pulling the valve covers is a good idea too (and check valve guides and chain). Starting to really wish I had a level garage and cash for that wrecker engine right now!

20231118_174012.jpg
At least it now sits OK on the new springs, and towing somewhere (e.g. the tip) is an option I suppose.

Since its going to stay streetbound under its cover for the foreseeable future I decided to finally pull off the fairly limp star:
20231118_170026.jpg
If it ever runs I might just replace the "gunsight" with a roundel badge. Any advice which models fit? And for that matter, any advice on transmission shops in Sydney that'll do a good job with a 722.0?

In the meantime I'll just have to hope that the car doesn't get clipped by any more garbage trucks, busses or supermarket delivery trucks in our narrow street, and leave its protection from tea leaves in the capable "hands" of my trusty security guard:
20231118_165600.jpg
He's not the fastest, but he's very observant, like his eyes are on stalks...
 
OP
ProfessorExperimental
Messages
125
Points
81
Location
Sydney
Putting the ford in will just be headache after headache
See now that im not only looking at engine out anyway, but $6-800 of new ignition and $300 of injection service plus my time, valve covers off and probably timing chain to factor in before I even get it into the garage to do it, the reason to consider a Ford swap is not even "easy power" or cost vs another Benz engine and transmission which might need fiddling to adapt to the cars cluster...

It's *just* about parts availability. I literally couldn't find a rotor button online last night. The closest was a 4.5 one with the lower rev limit, and the believably genuine one of those was $400 shipped... Lead sets to suit the later dizzy cap are similar... RHD starters are unobtanium. Literally the only option I could figure out was buying a used core from a UK wrecker, a nos pinion clutch from Turkey, and doing what I did to partially refurbish one yourself (or pay an autosparkie to). $500 in parts plus labour for a used starter and the hassle involved is getting on for silly with a car that isn't some exotic or collectable. Sbf or sbc parts, in contrast, will be plentiful for years.

At the end of the day I'd rather drive my car than have a garage ornament full of 3 point stars, if that's the choice it comes down to. So of course I see your point, but resale value doesn't make for a super strong argument when the capital outlay to maintain it might outweigh it and my time expenditure might render it moot...
 

c107

and 111/116/123/124/126
Moderator
Messages
3,652
Points
983
Location
Sydney
See now that im not only looking at engine out anyway, but $6-800 of new ignition and $300 of injection service plus my time, valve covers off and probably timing chain to factor in before I even get it into the garage to do it, the reason to consider a Ford swap is not even "easy power" or cost vs another Benz engine and transmission which might need fiddling to adapt to the cars cluster...

It's *just* about parts availability. I literally couldn't find a rotor button online last night. The closest was a 4.5 one with the lower rev limit, and the believably genuine one of those was $400 shipped... Lead sets to suit the later dizzy cap are similar... RHD starters are unobtanium. Literally the only option I could figure out was buying a used core from a UK wrecker, a nos pinion clutch from Turkey, and doing what I did to partially refurbish one yourself (or pay an autosparkie to). $500 in parts plus labour for a used starter and the hassle involved is getting on for silly with a car that isn't some exotic or collectable. Sbf or sbc parts, in contrast, will be plentiful for years.

At the end of the day I'd rather drive my car than have a garage ornament full of 3 point stars, if that's the choice it comes down to. So of course I see your point, but resale value doesn't make for a super strong argument when the capital outlay to maintain it might outweigh it and my time expenditure might render it moot...

Understand, the main point I was trying to make is while the ford engine is cheap, adapting it is not. A few have tried and had all sorts of issues with the steering system fouling, oil pans not clearing the cross member, the diff ratios being all wrong etc. So its not just a drop in if you want a good drivable car.
 
OP
ProfessorExperimental
Messages
125
Points
81
Location
Sydney
Understand, the main point I was trying to make is while the ford engine is cheap, adapting it is not. A few have tried and had all sorts of issues with the steering system fouling, oil pans not clearing the cross member, the diff ratios being all wrong etc. So its not just a drop in if you want a good drivable car.
Point well taken. All that packaging trouble is the sort of thing I'd probably have gotten fed up with before making any costly mistakes *if* I'd started working through all the implications of such a swap before recklessly ebaying under the influence. But fortunately I'm naturally inclined to stick to m11X power in any case. And whether out of trepidation or conservatism even quite partial to just fixing whatever is wrong with the m116. I guess whatever gets it drivable and not living on chassis stands as soon as possible will ultimately win. Seems a long way off but.

I guess the idea of a pain barrier, once overcome, is just sometimes more appealing than the dread of ongoing herculean quests every time something breaks. I mean, even the plug leads are a pain 🤣
 
OP
ProfessorExperimental
Messages
125
Points
81
Location
Sydney
Some bits arrived.

20231129_171512.jpg
Not sure I really believe they're genuine resistorless bosch plugs given the forum wisdom (circa 2006!) on 116.org that such can only be got from Herr Benz's Private Stash... but that's what they claim to be.

20231129_171005.jpg
Some ignition leads. Yes of course I stuffed up and got the wrong ones (for D-Jet cars with the modern female distributor contacts). The plug ends are also the run-of-the-mill sparkplug type. Not an issue these days I guess since even "old style" plugs like I got, ngk bp5es etc. should all come with the little push on barrel nuts fitted. Really I only need to sort out spark to the point that either the engine starts or I can eliminate lack of spark as a cause, so I wasn't too bothered. The correct distributor terminals are only an AliExpress order away and I have access to whatever crimp tools I'd need to rework them, should I need.

I was curious to see what sort of resistances the new and the old leads had. From teh googelz I expected the Eagle leads to be around 2kR, so theoretically high enough to comfortably not melt the coil without resistor plugs [ref for this is a porsche 924 I ran on a crane hi6 cdi for a year which had no coil or distributor issues. Crane recommends "as near zero resistance as possible" to get multispark etc. So I had custom TopGun leads at about 300R, noisy plugs and even dug the wire out of my dizzy rotor and filled it with copper to drop iirc the 100R in there. The coils are virtually the same between the two cars and the ignitiors look like dead ringers: given 924 was a 1978 release I'd be surprised if Bosch was building wildly different ignition circuits for transistorised distributed systems in K-Jetronic cars at the same time]. From teh metal rfi shields on the Beru leads I expected 5kR. Findings summarised below:
20231129_172831.jpg
Can literally read the length of the lead in resistance. At least relatively.
20231129_173811.jpg
It was a lot harder to make a multimeter connection to the Beru leads' plug ends. And sometimes they seemed friable, so broken conductors looked likely in #5 and #7. I pulled the leccy tape off #s 1 & 3 to see how bad the boots were. Didn't realise the boots just sheath the ceramic insulators at the back of the metal. Had a laugh at wrapping 4mm of porcelain in 400um of pvc to "prevent shorts" at 20kV or whatever...
20231129_174706.jpg

While I picked off the crusty burnt and oil hardened rubber (had already decided to heatshrink for looks) I noticed I could easily turn the lead in the boot...

20231129_175411.jpg
I had no idea they were screwed on!

Suddenly it all made sense.

20231129_180000.jpg
I *did* actually find some dodgy insulation near one plug boot (#2), so I pulled that one apart too. Cleaned them all, added heatshrink and reassembled:
20231129_181954.jpg
LGFFA!

Retested and connections were still non-trivial to make, but solid once found. Decided to employ an M4 screw as contact scrubber with some rp7.

And that's how I discovered this:
20231129_183306.jpg
This is #8. Do you see it? No? Neither do I!

20231129_183253.jpg
This is #7. Now you see it, right? Pretty obvious? It sure is when you jam a screw in there and need a pair of pliers to pull it out against that spring clip tension, but you get to lucky last and the screw falls all the way in under gravity alone and right back out again when you tip the boot!

So a multimeter is NOT all you need to check ignition leads, and I'm glad I've such a fetish for abrasively cleaning electrical contacts [refer to file and sandpaper work on starter in previous posts], otherwise I never would've twigged that the only force needed to get #8 on and off the plug was due to the rubber grommet on the plug insulator.

Now my quandary is this: I can get a genuine but used (pair of) Beru leads shipped from Germany for $100 or so. Possibly one of them has a good contact on the boot. But maybe takes a month. I can get a new lead kit for a 6 cylinder locally for about the same, slight gamble on contact type (did they change in '76? Did they ever come Kjet?). Or I can get a full set (correct one this time) of the same Eagle ones for $140. But probably still ~1kR, modern plug boots etc.

Infuriating since I only really need one Beru suppressor plug boot. The lead is fine. Stay factory spec. etc. But OTOH all I need right now is to get the car in the garage, so even just using one odd lead out from the unsuppressed Eagle leads should do. I guess I'll probably order them (p/n 7817, BTW for posterity, to suit post '76 v8s, the early cars use 7821. Anyone wants a set message me. Resistances in the photo!)
 

abl567

Super Moderator
Moderator
Messages
2,183
Points
240
Location
Sydney
The R in WR8DC stands for, you guessed it, resistor.
You need W8DC.
I may have a set I can spare, I'll check tomorrow
 
Last edited:

c107

and 111/116/123/124/126
Moderator
Messages
3,652
Points
983
Location
Sydney
Infuriating since I only really need one Beru suppressor plug boot. The lead is fine. Stay factory spec. etc. But OTOH all I need right now is to get the car in the garage, so even just using one odd lead out from the unsuppressed Eagle leads should do. I guess I'll probably order them (p/n 7817, BTW for posterity, to suit post '76 v8s, the early cars use 7821. Anyone wants a set message me. Resistances in the photo!)

If you're looking for one used one, give MB Classic in Greenacre a call. Its the sort of thing they would have and I doubt it would be very expensive.
 
Similar threads
Thread starter Title Forum Replies Date
SELfor50 450 SE 6.9 #2 Panzer Jager Mercedes W116 22

Similar threads

Top