Oils ain't Oils - how true ?

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Styria

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I have always been a firm believer rightly or wrongly, that if you shell out extra "dough" you will buy better quality oil and, consequently, that engine under the bonnet should run just that much better. Thus, for three to four years now I have been buying and using Castrol Magnatec which is priced at about $34.00 for five litres. Bear in mind you can buy alternative quality for about $18.00 for five.

This brings me to the Holden Statesman that we bought in September of last year, showing 162k.s on the speedometer. The car has had every service right on time since new, and the 160k. service had been completed just prior to our purchase of the car. Thus, I was somewhat surprised that, on cold start-up, the hydraulic lifters would just be ever so slight 'rattly' for several minutes until, obviously, the oil would start circulating and pressurize the lifters. Having owned Rover V8s for many years, I am familiar with camshaft, lifter and rockers and rockershaft wear, so these "rattle" symptoms were of some concern. Everyone I spoke to about the Gen 3 Chevy engine in this model Statesman assured me that it was a 'foolproof' and long lasting unit, so this further aroused my curiosity.

Thus I spoke to the mechanics that had serviced the car for about two years. On enquiry as to the type of oil they were using, I was told that it was Valvoline, presumably the XLD variety that he obviously buys in bulk quantity. I was a little sceptical and keen on using a different oil (not that I had any valid or scientific reason) and when the time came for the 170k. service, I decided to purchase the 'unbranded' oil available and recommended for the V8 Statesman by the Holden (GM) dealer at Baulkham Hills. It wasn't particularly expensive at about $26.00 for five liters and I decided to try it in preference. I had contacted the mechanic as to whether that was acceptable to him (which it was), but in the end the service was carried out by my tyre people (The Tyre King) at Baulkham Hills.

Whilst initially there was no change when starting from cold, after about one week (no more than that), those lifters have now 'settled down' and are no longer 'rattly' on start-up from cold. So that oil is doing its job and maybe, just maybe, oils ain't oils. Regards Styria

N.B. Just as an addendum. Our Statesman is berift of an oil pressure gauge. However, my oldest son, with his 1995 HSV Commodore does have an oil pressure gauge that never registers higher than 15lbs/sqin. - in my view, far too low, and his car runs around with the same bulk Valvoline Oil. When questioned during our recent trip to Maitland, he reckoned that it's always run at that oil pressure gauge reading - he's had the car for about eighteen months.
 
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BenzBoy

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This is a most interesting discussions Styria.
Modern engines last at lot longer than they did some 50 or 60 years ago simply because the oils are superior to what was used at the time. However, is there a real difference between modern oils? Everyone I ask assures me there is but no-one I have spoken to so far can demonstrate the difference in a scientific manner.
The following links make for interesting reading:
http://www.carbibles.com/engineoil_bible.html
http://www.focfloridaregion.com/edu/oil.htm
I know many country people who use basic oils, change them regularly and then get in excess of 400,000 from an engine.
It is generally accepted in R-R circles that the easiest way to quieten hydraulic lifters at start up on the V8 motor is to use Mobil 1 or similar fully synthetic oil. I have found it makes my motor quieter at idle and at the last change I used Magnatec as a cheaper alternative only to find that oil pressure fell at hot idle so I changed back immediately to Mobil 1.
I have to say, the question of oils is a most vexing one. My own feeling is that if you don't have a complex valve train you don't need one of the super complex oils so long as it is changed regularly.
I understand that the modern 0-30 and 0-40 oils were developed to reduce internal friction and obtain better fuel consumption figures. I wonder how that might affect engine wear?
Regards,
Benz-Boy
 
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John S

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If you want top clean your hydraulic lifters out just before an oil change add a cupful of ATF and drive it for a mile or so. ATF has a very high detergent content which really helps.

Unfortunately the latest oils are not quite as good as they were 2 or 3 years ago as the main wear reducing compound has been cut back to meet the latest USA regulations, but I believe that diesel oils still contain the same amount.
 

abl567

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Hi BenzBoy,
There has been much discussion on this subject on the M-100 site.
As I recall it has to do with a zinc additive that protects the high pressure contact area at the cam lobes. Essential in high torque large capacity engines :cool:
Anthony
 

Mercules

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VERY TRUE! And you pay for it as well...

When i put the Skyline together I ran a "cheap" synthetic ($45 fo 5 litres) for a week, emptied it and changed the filter the filled up with Penrite Sin 5 - Fully Synthetic 5W-60.... $65.00 for 5 litres!

I am just about to ditch the 5-speed and install a 4 speed auto with a fully-manualised valve body and hi-stall torque convertor - just bought 2 x 5 litre packs of Castrol Transmax Z - Full Synthetic ATF... at $74 EACH!
 

Des

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My uneducated opinion that it is important to keep an eye on the colour of the oil........


Something I haven't really cared too much about in the past, my Beetle has not got an oil filter, just a metal strainer that you clean when you drain the oil from the sump.

So I am quite particular when checking it, I notice when you put fresh oil in, it is virtually clear on the dipstick, all 2.5ltrs of it..

I have changed it twice in 6 months, and less than 500 miles, why?

Because the oil has gone black like coke a cola, at that point, in my opinion it is not doing what it is supposed to do.



I think colour of the oil is something to take into consideration, check it every week, then change.



An oil change is the cheapest thing you can do to a car, and an engine repair or rebuild is the most expensive thing you can do.



Draw your own conclusions from that please.




Kind Regards
Des
 

oscar

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Love a good oil thread :cool: Also love that carbible site benzboy. Ever since you first posted it it's been in my fave's and it convinced me to try synthetics. I had this stupid misinformed stigma over synthetic oils as being ineffective liquid plastics.:rolleyes:

Anyway, I've been on synthetics for a bit over two years and whilst I started off with Mobil1 I found more grades available locally in Castrol Edge Sport so have been using that ever since. I can't really comment on how the different grades or synthetic has affected engine and specifically tappet noise though. Working only on non hydraulic tappets I've found the tappety noise due to my errors in adjustment and once corrected I'm not sure I could tell the difference over mineral and synth.

The one thing I have discovered recently was regarding grades. Since my worn motors have 400,000km plus on the odo's I went straight for the higher weighted Castrol Edge 10w-60. Particularly in Povo, very little smoke whilst racing. Being around the $60/5L mark I saw Supercheap had 25w-50 on sale for around $25/5L. So I bought it and didn't think it would make that much difference so I put that in and you saw styria what happened at Oran Park at Easter, a lot of smoke on the overrun. I started to clutch and brake at the same time to avoid engine braking before corners. I'll be shelling out the for the 10w-60 again before next race. Hopefully it goes back to the way it was.

EDIT: I just looked up Castrol and found that 25w-30 is a premium mineral oil, not full synthetic like the other three types of "Castrol Edge Sport" branded oils. I thought all "Castrol Edge Sport" was Full Synth. Oooops. Must read fine print in future:mad:

Though thick v thin oils, it does make you wonder when is thick too thick and when is thin too thin. Whatever I put in my worn engines, I'm sure it doesn't take too long to be contaminated with blowby, but I've wondered, especially for the racer if thicker oil is leading to an early demise. Thicker oil might provide a thicker slippery barrier between moving metal parts, but is it's flow fast enough to help transfer heat as efficiently as thinner oil?
 
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BenzBoy

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Oscar - flow rates at specific temperatures are usually available on the data sheets for each oil. Flow rate can be just as important as oil pressure.
Des - the colour of the oil does tell you a lot. Oil should look dirty after a while as it is holding the carbon products, that have not gone down the exhaust, in suspension. Oil that goes black very quickly indicates blow-by.The nasties like acids etc don't change the colour of the oil.
Regards,
Benz-Boy
 

Lukas

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Very interesting and timely discussion. I was at a workshop open night held by the local MB club last week, and there was a Mobil rep there that did a talk on oils (MB officially endorse Mobil as their oil of choice these days, and for a while I think). He said several things that address the above points:

Thus, for three to four years now I have been buying and using Castrol Magnatec which is priced at about $34.00 for five litres.

Magantec rated very poorly with the rep - he rightly pointed out that the only way to make an oil magnetic is to add metal particles to it, which is exactly what you don't want in an engine oil. My moderate understanding of physics agrees with this, but as always open to corrections.

It is generally accepted in R-R circles that the easiest way to quieten hydraulic lifters at start up on the V8 motor is to use Mobil 1 or similar fully synthetic oil.

The Mobil rep, prehaps unsurprisingly, agrees. He also said there were no issues with using a synthetic oil in an older vehicle (I was asking about 6.9s) - I have previously read on some oil bottles and heard from some people that synthetic oils were not good for older cars - cause glazing inside the cylinders or something like that. Anyone care to comment?

If you want top clean your hydraulic lifters out just before an oil change add a cupful of ATF and drive it for a mile or so.

Raised this too, and Mr. Mobil was adamantly against this - bad for some kind of seal. He said you should just change the oil, and if gets dirty (see below) before the service interval, just change it again. Always change (or clean for Des) the filter at the same time as the oil.

My uneducated opinion that it is important to keep an eye on the colour of the oil........

Words of the Mobil man were that, if you run your finger along the dipstick, if the outside layer of the oil is black but it is still honey-coloured underneath, then the oil is still good. You can also check under the oil filler cap for sludge / crap buildups (except for 6.9s).

Based on this and the previous posts, I'm going to fill the 6.9 with Mobil 1 at the next change, and see what happens. For low-mileage-per-year cars, he says change it at least once a year if you are not going to reach the service interval in a year.

Mr Mobil was also (again, possibly unsurprisingly) not very impressed with Castrol and Penrite - both firms apparently simply blend and / or rebadge other oil, including Mobil product in some cases.
 

Fotografa

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Magantec rated very poorly with the rep - he rightly pointed out that the only way to make an oil magnetic is to add metal particles to it, which is exactly what you don't want in an engine oil. My moderate understanding of physics agrees with this, but as always open to corrections.

That is very nice of Mr Mobil to point out the obvious, but i think Mr Mobil knows, but obviously didn't say, that Magnatec is a marketing name, and I'm quite sure Castrol aren't stating that it is actually magnetic.
 

Fotografa

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After a lot of research, the next oil I will be using, to see what it performs like, on my 450SL, will be Caltex Delo 400.

What? Did I just hear you say that Delo is a Diesel oil?

Yes, it is, but this is what my research has found.

"You can as long as the oil is rated for both types of engines.

Normally Diesel Oil has a higher additive packages to deal with the added soot and the tighter tolerances in Diesel Engines.

No it will not ruin your gasoline engine, but on higher milage engines it can cause oil leaks from gaskets that are already weeping oil. This is because the additives are doing their job and removing the debris from these areas and sending them to your oil filter to be trapped.

The Diesel Engine Oil is formulated to deal with the more hostile environments that these types of industrial engines are often exposed to.

If the oil has any type of "S" rating on the back side of the bottle, it can be used in Gasoline Engines. One such oil os the Chevron Delo 400. Although it is approved for Caterpillar, Cummings, Detroit Diesel, Mercedes Benz and a few others, it also has a Gasoline Engine rating on the back of the bottle.

It simply means that it is better equipped to deal with stressful engine environments.

I have used this product for years in my cars and trucks. they have never had any oil related issues.

The Delo 400 is the best Natural Base Oil out there without getting into Synthetics, and that is because it is made for the Diesel Engine Applications. But this also means it is that much better for the Gasoline Engines.

I have been to the SEMA events where they compare different types of oils side by side with Synthetics, and the Chevron Delo 400 15w-40 is the only one that I have seen that holds its own against oils like Mobil 1.

To me that is definately saying something about the product.

I hope that sets your mind at ease."
 

abl567

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He also said there were no issues with using a synthetic oil in an older vehicle (I was asking about 6.9s) - I have previously read on some oil bottles and heard from some people that synthetic oils were not good for older cars - cause glazing inside the cylinders or something like that. Anyone care to comment?

From my experience and that of others on the M-100 site Mobile1 is not the best choice for MFI M100 engines.
I ran Mobile1 in #2723 during a 1200 mile road trip shortly after I bought it and changed back to Penrite HPR50 as soon as I returned home.
The low viscosity caused weeps to become leaks and was less than effective in the MFIP where the oil under pressure provides a seal for the plungers, allowing fuel to join the oil in the sump. While this does not reduce lubrication properties in synthetics as it does with mineral base oils changing back to HPR50 eliminated that symptom.
I do use Mobile1 in the rear compartment of the MFIP due to its non diluting properties and in my parents 1999 W202s.

Funny thing, we had a Mobile rep give a talk during the Down Under Rally, given the majority drove MFI cars his take on the use of Mobile1 was different so I will be kind and assume research was done rather than a good rep reading the audience well:rolleyes:
 

chrisp

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From my experience and that of others on the M-100 site Mobile1 is not the best choice for MFI M100 engines.
I ran Mobile1 in #2723 during a 1200 mile road trip shortly after I bought it and changed back to Penrite HPR50 as soon as I returned home.

Hi Ant,

So would you advocate Penrite HPR50 in a K-Jetronic M100 too?

Regards,

Chris
 

B13

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I advocate using HPR-30. I use it in my 6.9

In my 190E I use HPR-15, and in the 450SE track car believe it or not I use Valvoline XLD 20-50 cheapo oil but change it frequently.

I.
 

BenzBoy

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I ahve no issues with Penrite and know the company is held in very high regard. I use it in the PII. However, I understand they do not make their own base stock or the additives they use to bring the base stock up to specification. That is, they are blenders rather than makers of oil. Is this an advantage or a disadvatage?
My Benz mech-head will not use Mobil 1 in an older car for the same reasons as given by Ant. He prefers the Mobil semi-synthetic or the Castrol equivalent.
Maybe the answer is Amsoil or Redline? Buggered if I know.....
What bugs me is that we are so often at the mercy of sales reps and without sufficient information to make a truly informed choice. The same happens in the Royce world where the big question is over hydraulic fluid - I know of one chappy in the Middle East who is blending his own simply because he can't get a satisfactory supply. From all accounts his blend is working.
Regards,
Benz-Boy
 
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Styria

Styria

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What an interesting, and perhaps even controversial, topic this has developed into. I must say that I am somewhat disappointed at the findings or criticism levelled at the Castrol Magnatec Oil. As I said right from the beginning, I buy and use it on account of its somewhat 'up-market' price - whether or not it's performing a better job, I am obviously in no position to say yes or no.

I think it needs to be said on my part that a fully synthetic oil is my definite preference. Again, I have no real support base for this belief other than to recall my usage of an American brand two stroke additive racing oil by the name of Amsoil. When racing, and also trail riding on my Husqvarnas, I would mix Amsoil with petrol at a ratio of 100:1. One could have scoffed at that ratio, but I had reason to remove the head from my 430WR at one stage and the amount of protective oil film on the piston and cylinder liner had to be seen to be believed. It was remarkable, and from then on I was sold on synthetic oil.

Which then brings me to Mobil 1. I read BenzBoy's remarks with great interest, but again with some disappointment. Although, obviously, he's no fool and tells how it is. I have stopped using Mobil 1 for no reason other than its price. If indeed an oil change on a 6.9 was just a five litre job, no worries. But when it becomes 12 liters, you then have to start counting the dollar issue to a not inconsiderable degree. I just wish I'd know what brand oil is sold by the Holden dealer to suit the small block Chevy engine in the Statesman. As I said, the difference is very noticeable. However, the spare parts guy behind the counter had absolutely no idea. Regards Styria
 

BenzBoy

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You are too kind Styria. :D
Each of the companies ha s a website with downlaodable data sheets which provide some helpful specs. I have yet to download them all and compare each one....:eek:
Regards,
Benz-Boy
 

Fotografa

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Mobil 1, 15W 50 is the one to use.


Do we get a reason?

Not trying to be rude, just trying to distinguish between informed opinion or personal experience, and someone quoting the marketing hype?

Are you saying it is the one to use for all engines?

I have a feeling you have good reason for making your statement, as you're not the type to post rubbish, I'm just extra keen for the info. :)
 
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