Longevity of Petrol

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Styria

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After carrying out some more work on Gleaming Beauty, I got somewhat excited and decided that it was time to put some petrol in the old girl. I have been putting in about twenty liters at a time with the result that the tank is now full to the brim - all of 96 liters.

The question I have is this - is there any particular time or period when this petrol starts to go off - if at all ? I seem to recall having read in times gone by that the quality starts to deteriorate within several weeks. Any advice would be appreciated. Regards Styria
 

BenzBoy

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Petrol has a finite life but the length is a matter of contoversy. I have been told by Benz technician that it starts to go off after several weeks and told by a refinery scientist that it will last 12 motnhs or more. ????
One factor is how and where it is stored and possible contamination...
Certainly "off" petrol has a distinctive odour.
Regards,
Brian

From Chevron:
Does gasoline really go "bad" if you leave it unused for a period of time? Some people are convinced this is just another urban legend, and that people who worry about "old gas" and spend money on fuel stabilizer are wasting psychic energy as well as cash.

But in fact, gasoline can degrade over time. That can lead to a number of problems, ranging from hard starting, to rough running, to no starting at all.

Here's Why


Unlike crude oil, gasoline is a highly refined product brewed to a certain chemical composition with very specific characteristics. One characteristic of gas is volatility, a term used to describe how easily and under what conditions the gas vaporizes so it can be efficiently burned in your car's engine.

The most highly volatile components in gasoline also tend to evaporate over time. As they do, the remaining fuel's volatility and ability to combust properly degrades. The less volatile the fuel, the less effectively it burns in your engine. The result is diminished engine performance. Your engine may still start and run, but it probably won't run as well.

The good news is, once the old gas has been consumed and the tank is topped off with fresh fuel, the problem should cure itself. Evaporation of volatile compounds can be limited by making sure the gas cap is secured tightly. For the same reason, be sure all portable gas containers are sealed tightly as well.

A More Serious Problem: Oxidation


Hydrocarbons in the gas react with oxygen to produce new compounds that eventually change the chemical composition of the fuel. This leads to gum and varnish deposits in the fuel system.

These deposits and impurities can clog up gas lines and filters, as well the small orifices in a carburetor and the even smaller orifices in a fuel injector. Removing these deposits can be expensive and your vehicle may not run at all or run very poorly until they are removed.

Water Contamination


Condensation can form inside your gas tank and lines from heat cycling. Fuels such as E85, which have a high concentration of ethanol alcohol, may be even more susceptible to water contamination, as ethanol likes to draw moisture out of the surrounding air.

Water contamination can be a problem at gas stations with light traffic due to a slightly different kind of heat cycling. The underground storage tanks experience increases and decreases in temperature. This can cause moisture to form and contaminate the fuel. When you fill up at such a station, you're pumping in the water along with the gas. Such low-traffic stations may also have other contaminants in their underground storage tanks, such as rust. They are best avoided when possible.

Water, of course, does not work too well as a fuel in an internal combustion engine.

It will cause hard starting and rough running until it's purged from the system. It can also contribute to internal rusting of the gas lines and tank. The resultant scale and small particles can create a true nightmare, sometimes requiring the replacement of the gas lines and tank at considerable expense.

You can reduce the chances of water contamination by keeping your car's gas tank as close to full as possible, especially if the vehicle is going to be left idle for an extended period.

How Do You Identify Bad Gas?


One way is to eyeball it. Oxidized fuel often turns darker over time and may even smell sour. You can check stored gasoline by pouring some into a clear glass container and comparing it side-by-side with known fresh gasoline. If your old sample looks noticeably darker than the fresh gas, you have strong evidence the gas has gone bad.

How Long Does it Take for Gas to Go Bad?


That depends on a number of factors. For one, it's hard to know how old the gas you just bought actually is. It may be fresh from the refinery, or it may be a month old already by the time you top off your tank. Some gasoline is mixed with better or more oxidation inhibitors than others.

It's a good rule of thumb to avoid leaving gas in your tank or a storage container for more than a coupe of months, if you can avoid it.

And if You Can't?


If you know gas will sit in your tank or a storage container for a couple months, then it's a wise move to buy some fuel system stabilizer and mix it in with the gasoline. Do it before you put the vehicle into long-term storage or before leaving your lawn equipment fuel containers sitting for the winter. The stabilizer helps prevent oxidation, the biggie that can turn gas into garbage that gunks up your system and leads to expensive repair work.

Using fuel system stabilizer for extended storage is preferable to draining the tank and leaving the system dry. This can cause rubber hoses, gaskets and seals to dry-rot and crack, possibly leading to leaks and even a fire. In addition, a dry system can expose the insides of metal fuel lines and your gas tank to air and moisture, which can lead to or accelerate the formation of rust.

Fuel system stabilizer is not a cure-all and it doesn't last forever. It must be mixed with fresh gas before the vehicle is stored, not added to already old gas. It can slow down the oxidation process and keep gas fresh for as long as 12 to15 months. If you're going to leave the vehicle parked for longer than that, you may want to drain the tank and refill with fresh fuel before returning the vehicle to service.
 
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Tony66_au

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High octane fuel can go "Off" in as little as 6 weeks but it depends on the brand of fuel and as there has been much public speculation on the matter both here and Overseas Id think the fuel companies have done something about it.

Ive had 3/4's of a tank of BP 98 in a falcon I have here for more than 12 months and she still starts and runs ok but if i take her out she does carry on a touch and rattles a tad under heavy throttle.

I also keep a few hundred litres of 91 octane fuel handy as I live in a rural area where service stations close early and this is now getting onto 6 months old.

I recently filled the tank of my 230 with 59 lt from this drum and although the car ran fine it returned awful consumption figures well below my normal returns per Km suggesting an issue.

Id suggest a few months before degradation and 12 months before it becomes a possible issue.

On the flip side I bought a car from Country Vic a few years ago that still had over half a tank of leaded fuel and when I got the car home I took it for a quick 40 k shakedown run at highway speeds being very surprised to see a nice grey tailpipe when I stopped halfway through the run. (How long since lead disappeared?)

Tony
 

SEL_69L

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I have learned a bit more from the above posts.

Fuel blending is somewhat of a black art, analogus to tyre manufacture.

I understand that fuel blends are a mixture of maybe 20 components, and the fuel blend varies throughout the year according to ambient seasonal variation, and which district the fuel is intended to be sold.

Armed with a bit more knowledge, what do we do with it?

What is your attitude as to:
1) How often do your buy your fuel,
2) How empty do you let the tank get,
3) Where from and,
4) What octane rating do you buy for your engine?

If you can submit a 'Why?' to each of these policies, I am sure we can learn a little more yet!
 

Tony66_au

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1) How often do your buy your fuel,

Usually under a 1/4 tank so once or twice a week.

2) How empty do you let the tank get,

According to my fill's being roughly 55 litres it gets as low as 5 lt in the tank, usually 15-20 km into the reserve light

3) Where from and,

BP and lately Caltex as their fuel seems to give me better running and more mileage.
4) What octane rating do you buy for your engine?

91 ron, because its an M102 and after testing 95 and 98 ron fuel for 3 or 4 tanks each I cant see or feel any major advantage.

that help?
 

Tony66_au

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BTW, I had a mate who was a chemical engineer for an oil company and he inferred similar info to what you posted above as at the time I had a diesel and Id had a few bad batches of fuel, he also was the guy who set me on the path of record keeping with mileage etc because his words were something to the effect of it changes all the time (The mix)
 
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Styria

Styria

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Thanks a lot guys. From where I sit, there appears to be no clear answer to my query except that it would probably be best to get Gleaming Beauty back on the road as a matter of some priority. I miss driving her anyway, not that the replacement I am using is a slouch ! BTW Tony, with the high compression 6.9 engine in Gleaming Beauty, there is a definite difference in running quality between RON 91 and even RON 95, which is the fuel I use most times. Regards Styria
 

Oversize

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I'd suggest RON 91 for AUST versions & RON 98 for EURO. I also run Valvemaster upper cylinder lubricant, due to the lack of lead. This can go off (unmixed) over 12 months & turn into a gel! I stay away from quiet servos (with low fuel turnover) due to possible contamination. I've also decided to stay away from RON 95 for the same reason (low turnover). I've also been known to add 500ml - 1L of Metho to old fuel, before adding new fuel. This should absorb any condensation. I'd consider any fuel over 6 months old as OLD.

I've had fuel in my dual-fuel Fairmont Ghia go off & destroy the pump, even though it starts on petrol every time. I'd suggest running any vehicle close to empty on a regular basis, to ensure there's no old fuel left. I replaced the fuel pump and filter on my parts car (in the early days) when it started behaving strangely & hiccupping. It was causing the engine to misfire, or sometimes cut out. After some months of normal behaviour the problem returned, so I now suspect there's contaminants in the tank. I never understood why MB decided to run a screen, pump, then filter. I would've thought it'd be better to have a screen, filter & then the pump (ot protect it). But then again perhaps they were worried about a blocked filter & the prospect of running the pump dry? :rolleyes:
 
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Styria

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Hi Mark, I have had similar thoughts regarding the sequence and positioning of the fuel filter - in most cars, it is the filter first, and then the pump. With our 107s and 116s, there is no doubt that the large Bosch pump is an excellent unit as it performs well, and is extremely durable with excellent lasting characteristics.

Having regard to those sentiments, I would imagine that it would be of tantamount importance to protect the fuel divider from unwanted impurities and perhaps having the filter positioned where it is, it could well be the ideal location. 109s, the 6.3s anyway, run on the same principle but in my view their filter quality is nowhere near as efficient as the unit employed on the 116s and 107s. One item I find to be an absolute pain in the backside is the inability to shut off the fuel supply when changing the filter.

Getting back to additives, impurities etc. as per your post, I have never had any problems with Gleaming Beauty in all the time I have owned her. The first time I re-sprayed her, she was VOR for about twelve months (maybe a bit less), and I would start her occasionally every so many weeks without experiencing any problems fuel wise. Regards Styria
 

Oversize

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Let me assure you all that fuel has a very real lifespan, but what that is exactly I still don't know. I had the fuel sender in my Ghia repaired recently and they told me the fuel had gone off again. I hadn't used the petrol for a while because the sender wasn't working. At roughly $300 to drain the tank and put on a new filter, I declined to have the work done and decided to run it until empty and change the filter myself; much to Ford's dismay and against their recommendations. Although she'll run on petrol, under load she pings like crazy and I've been driving very carefully as a result. Fortunately the tank's nearly empty, so not much longer before some new fuel goes in. On fresh petrol she goes better than the LPG and with the exhaust modifications, she's no slouch on gas. Obviously bad fuel makes a huge difference.

I wonder if the new fuel could be contaminated by a little old fuel still in the tank?? :rolleyes:

Even my chainsaw's been behaving strangely and I'm starting to wonder if it's the two-stroke!
 

Tony66_au

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3 months max before it loses its ooomph.

Hi Octane fuels go off faster and it depends on how long its been in the tank at the servo.

I have recently found that Caltex/Safeways fuel lasts as long as 6 months and E10 crap turns turtle in as little as 4 weeks.
 

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So I've come up with the following to prevent the fuel going off again in Deep Blue (my dual fuel Ghia). 3 months max lifespan for the fuel and a 60L tank. That's a minimum consumption of 20L per month, or 5L per week. At the average rate of 15L/100km, I need to run it on petrol for 33kms, 3 times per week. So M, W, F I start it on petrol and do a mostly downhill run (with a couple of squirts thrown in) to use up the fuel. RON 95 is 10c/L dearer than regular, not as good as premium and likely to have been sitting in the ground tanks longer (because it's not as popular as the other fuels) with the chance of extra contaminants thrown in. Therefore I decided to use premium 98, which is only 4c/L dearer than 95. Hopefully this'll prevent any issues....
 

260ebenz

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Talking of petrol.

Unleaded 91 containing E10 has been receiving bad press lately when used in newer cars made from 2000 onwards.

I have NEVER used E10 in the 260E or the 2006 Toyota Yaris.

We use BP 98 when filling up the 260E and BP 95 when filling up the Yaris.

Staying away from E10.
 
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Styria

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I mainly use Ron 95 grade - both the Statesman and Gleaming Beauty seem to run well with that rating fuel. Occasionally, I'll go for 98, but never 91 nor E10. Regards Styria
 

abl567

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I took the 6.3 out for a impromptu fang on Sunday and as I have been driving it daily was caught short for fuel so pulled into the only servo around where I ended up, a BP that didn't look like it had a real high turnover. They only had 95 octane so I filled up with that. The pinging was unbearable! I've used 95 before from high turnover places and while it pinged it wasn't almost undriveable like this time, so I'm guessing old fuel for all the reasons posted previously. It soon after developed a miss and I couldn't give it WOT to clear the plug so I stoped at another servo, bought a bottle of Nulon octane booster thinking all along I was wasting my money, poured it in, drove for a k or 2 and floored it at 40mph, bloody thing light up the wheels and shot down the road, chirping the tires again into 3rd then again into 4th:cool:
 

Tony66_au

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95 is a low turnover fuel and I avoid it.

The Nulon stuff is great and I used to use it when I was going to Calder and drag racing most friday nights, its a good saviour.

Im getting impressive results from Caltex/Safeways branded fuels lately as my local BP's all buy fuel from the Mobil terminal and Ive had varying to bad results.

Mark with LPG being the price it is currently Id suggest doing some mileage tests on Petrol mate.

3 tanks of 98 ron and then compare it to the LPG
 

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Unfortunately I can't do testing as neither car is driveable for the time needed. And to get Blue Flame roadworthy I'd have to pull the LPG cylinder out for testing and either replace, or rebuild the mixer. Which would be a complete waste on money if I find the running costs on LPG aren't favourable. I'll have to re-assess this when Red Bull is on the road (hopefully July) and what the price of LPG is like then.

Does anyone know if the K-Jet system is the same on Aussie and Euro versions? Is the 450 system the same as 6.9?
 

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After recently trying in vain to start a couple of 6.9s that hadn't been started in a while I can honestly say fuel is the biggest problem facing today's car collector. More than 3 months & you risk seizing your pump regardless of the fuel grade used. And so I intend to embark on a fuel tank bipass system to keep the fuel systems healthy & the engines running into the future
 

Oversize

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Has anyone tried using a fuel stabilizer?
 

motec 6.9

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